How Independent Health Stores Win With Education, Quality, And Community with Brian Hall

Tina Maddock: 0:00

Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer Podcast. I’m your host, Tina Mattock. On this podcast, you’ll hear from manufacturers, retail owners and operators, and other business experts that will help you grow your business so you can serve more people and change more lives. I really wanted to talk to you because you were in you went to Soho.

Brian Hall: 0:21

I did go to Soho.

Tina Maddock: 0:23

You were the speaker at Soho.

Brian Hall: 0:26

I yeah, it was it was fantastic. It was uh it was an honor, you know. Um, I think Ryan called me and I did a a talk at uh one of his stores in Florida.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 0:34

Um and he called and said, Hey, you know, you were did great, and I think you’d be a good speaker, and I was I was honored. So got down there and uh did the breakfast event, I think, on Friday, um, to kind of kick off the show, which was uh super exciting. And we had a full room.

Tina Maddock: 0:50

So yeah, tell me, um, I I heard a lot of great things from retailers who attended the talk. Um, so tell me a little bit about what you felt in the room, what kind of questions you got from people while you after you presented, and just tell me a little bit about what was going on there.

Brian Hall: 1:10

Yeah, I think you know, the title of the talk really was getting back to the roots of our industry, you know, Tina. So I mean, I think I’ve been in the industry since I was a kid, you know, 15 years old. Um, and so that that’s dating me. I can’t even do the math anymore at my age. I think it’s like 36 years. Um, and so I was kind of telling that story and sitting down and really getting into the soul, into the heart, uh, and the roots of the industry and what this industry was built on, which was uh, you know, education and you know, like you said, passion. And, you know, I ask the audience, and I do this all the time. I travel around and I visit hundreds of health food stores uh, you know, a quarter as I travel across the country. And I always sit down with the owners and the buyers and they say, Hey, what are your challenges? What are you looking for? You know, what you know in your business? And you know, those challenges they were echoed in that segment. Uh, you know, they were the challenges of uh, you know, the the all the changes that have occurred with, you know, the POS and the systems and the data management and you know, and then also you know, you have a whole new level of marketing and advertising to try and bring new customers in the door. And you have a lot of the brands that have been so loyal to the industry uh for many years, you know, that they’re they’re have been purchased, they’ve been sold, they’ve been, you know, and their paths changed, and they’re going into a lot of the you know mass market stores and stuff like that. And so independent retailers really need to be at the on the top of their game uh to be able to compete. And you know, there’s one area where they can compete and win, and that’s on being involved in the community and winning an education. And that’s what I took from it, Tina.

Tina Maddock: 2:57

Yeah, I mean, we hear that so much. Like people continue to go to the independent retail stores because they can get recommendations, they can get educated on what is the thing that I am about to take and where’s its source. Like part of that to me, too, their differentiation is picking the right products to be on the shelves so that it’s something that consumers can trust that the label is what it says it is, and that there aren’t any contaminants, heavy metals, those sorts of things that are in the product. And I think the independent retailers have become the gatekeeper of um products that are worth spending money on because they have efficacy for all the reasons that I just talked about.

Brian Hall: 3:47

100%. And you know, I and I I announced in the room there too, I said True Race is starting a new campaign in 2026. Really, it’s multifaceted, but you know, the main campaign is gonna be it’s gonna be read the label, Tina.

Tina Maddock: 4:03

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Brian Hall: 4:05

I mean, you think about this, I mean, independent retailers they’re bombarded with, you know, I talk uh do a lot of Teams calls and I talk to some category managers and I looked, you know, behind their their desk and their shelf, Tina, and there’s like 250 products. But that’s where you know you see the uh the retailers, they look in the back and they’re getting so inundated with products. And a lot of times they’re just looking at like the front of the pack or the fancy marketing and you know, a lot of these things, and they’re not actually turning over and diving into and looking at the ingredients and the efficacy. And are they using clinically studied ingredients? You know, that’s another thing that you know at True Grace, our tagline is meaningful ingredients at affected doses, and we focus a lot on clinically studied ingredients. Um and you know, a lot of retailers, you know, they they either either don’t dive in to that and see it. Um, and you know, it’s all you know, kind of the marketing and you know, and we’re trying to remind them that. And then the other thing, the the other part of that campaign in 2026 is we’re redefining on education. So our our whole theme at True Grace is excellence in education. And as CEO, I’m putting that through my whole company that I want excellence in education coming from True Grace. I want to be the source where retailers can um look to, you know, for something that’s uh, you know, for for their staff to be able to educate themselves on on all these clinically studied ingredients and innovations and different things like that. So we’re gonna be ramping up in 26 for the independent retailers and coming out with a platform that they can uh use themselves and their associates and new hires and all that stuff. So we’re gonna double down where the industry’s void is.

Tina Maddock: 5:56

Yeah, thank you for doing that and saying that because here’s um something that we’ve found too that the retailers will be very honest about it. The products that their floor people are trained on are the ones that get sold. So the fact that you guys are investing in this just means that’s gonna be better for the retailer, the consumer, and for you because that’s the product people are gonna focus on. Um, and so I love that you guys are doing that. And one other thing that sort of came up for me while you were just talking was um read the label is great. And can you trust the label is a whole other question. And I think it’s a big one because you know, Amazon will let anyone sell anything on that platform. And again, reading the label, I think is the beginning. The second thing is do you trust the manufacturer? Are there third-party tests that are going into this? How do we know that we’re giving our consumers good products? And I think you guys do a lot to help people understand like we are giving you what’s in what is on that label in that package.

Brian Hall: 7:15

Yeah. And I talked about that in our, you know, and I I’m I’m honest with the retailers. I talked to the retailers about one of our products, our probiotic. You know, we’re the only probiotic, Tina, I believe in North America. You can fact check that for me, but we’re the only probiotic in North America carrying a third-party seal from Purity IQ, an independent testing lab in uh Guelph, Ontario. Check them out. Your listeners got to check them out. They’re amazing. They do, they do mushrooms, they do probiotics, they do DNA identity, all this stuff. But they actually can test and have tested our probiotic every batch, every lot. You know, so I pay around $6,000 per lot, right, to have this test and that seal on my bottle. And, you know, what it says is that, hey, we’ve done the test. Not only are these specific strains that are clinically studied, you know, and referenced on PubMed, not only are they in there, but they’re in there at the amount they say they’re in there. And we actually got a letter from them saying that, hey, congratulations over the last three years, you’ve had like, I don’t know how many lots it was, six, seven, eight lots, where every lot, Tina, had a 99%, or I think it was 98.7% batch-to-batch consistency, meaning every capsule in every lot over three years was on that label claim.

Tina Maddock: 8:37

That’s saying a lot. And you know, we are gonna interview them on the podcast. We’ve scheduled. Well, you are. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Hall: 8:42

Oh, awesome.

Tina Maddock: 8:43

Yeah, I’m Dilio.

Brian Hall: 8:44

Are you gonna email you’re gonna talk to Dilio?

Tina Maddock: 8:46

Yes.

Brian Hall: 8:47

Awesome. I love her. She’s great. She’s dear friend of mine.

Tina Maddock: 8:50

Yeah, she’s great. And I can’t wait to have her on the podcast. She’s coming up soon. Um, so that’ll be great for all the listeners to hear. But um, I think, you know, sometimes um the retailers talk about price and that it’s difficult for them to maintain margin and have the consumer pay a certain price level. Some of the things that you’re talking about, you’re spending extra money getting that proof that what is on the label is in the package. And I think the consumer can be educated around that, that there’s extra value there and that people don’t have to worry as much about squishing their margins down to be more competitive with another brand that’s more affordable, but doesn’t have all of the process in it that a brand like yours has.

Brian Hall: 9:38

And that’s third-party testing. And you know, another thing that we do, we use a company called Alchemist Labs out of Southern California, and they’re testing all of our, you know, our mushrooms and they’re testing our fish oil to make sure that it has the level of VPA and DHR. And we actually put those logos on our bottle. And here’s where you have to be careful, Tina, is because now I knowing this now as a as an owner of a company, and I’m involved in all the you know regulatory and formulations and and all that stuff. And you know, I see some companies go out there and it’s it says on the the front of the label or the side or the back, whatever, wherever it’s a third party tested. And that’s all it says. It’s like, what am I supposed to trust you? I mean, like, well, you I could there’s no regulatory around that. I can say that it’s third-party tested. How many times is it the third party tested? Is it every lot? What are you testing for? You know, and the retailers need to ask these questions, right? Ask me. I want you to ask me.

Speaker 2: 10:36

Right.

Brian Hall: 10:36

Because be if you’re asking me, that means that you care about it. And if you care about it, it may not have the answer that day, but I’m gonna go back and I’m gonna get you what you need. You know, and and I had a I had a call yesterday. You mentioned price. It’s so funny. I had a call with a retailer yesterday, and she calls and she’s like, Well, you know, we really love your maltis, but you know, you’re more expensive than you know, this other whole food-based brand. And, you know, you’re more expensive than this other whole food-based brand. And you’re more and I I was I I overcame the objection in 30 seconds. It wasn’t a big deal. But here’s here’s here’s what I want to. I I came up with an analogy last night. I was sitting on the couch, I was thinking about that conversation. But do you, Tina, do you have an iPhone?

Speaker 2: 11:19

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 11:20

You do? Okay. Most people probably do listening to this, right?

Speaker 2: 11:25

Yep.

Brian Hall: 11:26

iPhones, the new iPhone just came out, iPhone 17. What is that thing, Tina? But 13, 14, 1500 bucks?

Tina Maddock: 11:33

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 11:33

We don’t bat an eye.

Tina Maddock: 11:35

Oh, right.

Brian Hall: 11:36

We don’t bat an eye. Hey, I want the iPhone 17. I’m gonna stand in line for nine hours to pay $1,300 for a phone. Okay? Now, Tina. They still sell flip phones that you can get.

Tina Maddock: 11:52

I did not know that.

Brian Hall: 11:53

They still, yeah, you can go into Verizon ATT and they still sell the you know the little phones. You can get them for $79. Now, Tina, they both call people. They both text people. But what would you think app when somebody comes and says, Oh, I can’t sell your iPhone because this you know phone over here is $79.99.

Tina Maddock: 12:20

Yeah, no.

Brian Hall: 12:22

That’s the difference, guys, between True Grace and a lot of the other whole food-based multis out there. You can’t compare.

unknown: 12:31

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 12:31

You know, you when you when you pull them off the shelf and they’re you know $23.99 and ours is $29.99, we’re there’s no Menic7, clinically studied Menic 7 K2 at an efficacy efficacious dose of 60 micrograms. They have none. We have 60 micrograms. You know, um, we’re at at True Grace, we’re using things like clinically studied ergoactive ergothionine. That’ll that product alone sells for 30 bucks a month, just if you were to buy five milligrams of it. You get where I’m going, Tina? It’s like you can’t just come down to price. You have to look at value. Um, and so that’s where we’re trying to tell people. You know, we’re using fruiting body mushrooms that are third-party tested by Alchemist Labs. We’re using Menic 7K2, we’re using, you know, fermented glycoprotein-bound nutrients. These are all extra steps and measures that we take that bring the quality up.

Tina Maddock: 13:30

Yeah, I mean, and part of this is educating the consumer, but I also think the consumer’s more educated than they used to be because TikTok and whatever, and there’s plenty of misinformation out there, but they have some knowledge around some of these things that you’re talking about. So just highlighting them might be enough for many people to say, okay, this is worth it because it has these items in it. I mean, when you start talking about fermented um those ingredients are important in the conversation around paramenopause, which is blowing up online right now. And so just highlighting that ingredient alone might be enough to be like, oh, this is the one if I’m a woman that I would want to take over another brand. So I do think sometimes it’s just highlighting the difference. And we’ve talked about things that really work comparison charts, um, this versus other brands. Um, and then also being able to have educated conversations with a consumer about this. So again, we go back to then the team on the floor needs to be educated about all of these things as well.

Brian Hall: 14:52

Yeah, and I think, you know, the team on the floor, and that’s key. And you know, here’s the problem is you got, you know, some of these brands out there that are owned by, you know, the big, you know, you know who they are. Your listeners know, you know. I don’t have to reiterate, I don’t want to do that. But they, you know, people come in into the store and be like, oh, do you have this, you know, whole food-based multivitamin? You know, and then what we do as retailers is we what we do, we take them over the shelf, we say, here it is, and then we walk away. And you know, what we need to train the staff to do is when they come in and they say, I’m looking for XYZ brand. Oh, it’s a great brand. What made you interested in it? Oh, I saw it on TikTok. Oh, you saw it on TikTok. Okay, great. Um, it’s a great brand, you know, but some of the things in that that they’re missing in here are things like you know, the Manicue 7K2, and uh, you know, it’s not non-GMO or it’s you know not fermented, you know, all of those things, those highlights that we can engage the staff at the floor level to say, oh, and then the you know 99% of the time, Tina, the people are gonna be like, Oh, I’ll take that brand. Is that what you take?

Tina Maddock: 16:02

Yeah. You know, and they walk out. We talk a lot about how important it is for the floor team to start the conversation with what brought you in today? You know, just a simple open-ended question like that, it might still elicit the same answer of, I’m looking for this brand. But actually, when you start the conversation with what brought you in today, or did you come in to solve something specific? Are you looking to reach a specific goal? When you when you sort of um do those questions a little bit differently at the very start of the conversation, then you become collaborative and helping them solve a problem versus I want a brand, I want this item, which can also happen. You can still point them in that same direction, but then you’ve got a bunch of resources you can point them to in the store, which leads to better service for them because they’re trying to solve a problem, and higher um baskets for you, because hey, you’re not just you don’t just need a multivitamin, you’re actually looking for something specific related to what, because you’re trying to solve a problem. And then, oh, well, that’s great. And do you know this makes it even better when you pair these two things together? You start having really good conversations that lead the consumer to get what they need instead of just what they came in the store thinking that they needed.

Brian Hall: 17:32

A hundred percent. You know, um, and that’s uh that’s the education, that’s the excellence in education that we’re gonna be striving for. And then, you know, you’re looking at some brands too, where you know, they’ll come in and they’ll ask for a specific brand or they see it on social media and they see you know these other things. I had a retailer the other day, you know, uh, we have an electrolyte product and uh I use that. Oh, you do? Oh, awesome. Electromag, yeah, it’s amazing.

Tina Maddock: 17:55

Great fruit is my favorite.

Brian Hall: 17:57

Awesome. And then we just launched Pink Lemonade, you know, so it’s coming out uh here shortly too. But you know, what’s interesting with that is you know, we launched this view, it’s skyrocketing in sales. I mean, it’s it’s everywhere selling, it’s just like top, top, top. Um, you know, but there’s some competition out there, and there’s some you know, big competition out there, and there’s a lot of mass market type competition um, you know, in that realm. And you know, you look at it and you know, it’s the retailers. I don’t know. I mean, there’s you have some of the things where there was some media uh centered around exactly what you said, which you guys, you know, your listeners can look this stuff up, but is what’s in there, is is what’s in there, what they’re saying is in there. Is there other things in there? Is there testing, you know, um all of those things? And it’s been brought out, you know, that it’s not. And you know, the other thing then is like it’s not non-GMO. And I’m not gonna mention the brand’s name, but it’s not non-GMO. It’s not using organic natural flavors. Um, it’s you know, in Target for, and you know, you can get an eight-pack in Target for nine bucks. And it’s like, what do we what do Tina, you tell me what do independent retailers want? Do they want us to take all of our money and put it into TikTok? Or you guys have standards that you want us to meet, which is non-GMO, which is organic, which is you know, um, no other filler ingredients in an electrolyte product, um, and you don’t want us en masse, then what do we have to do else, Tina, to get independent retailers to double down on Electromag or True Grace? And I’m using that as a whole industry standard because there’s other great brands out there too that are doing what we’re doing. Yeah, you know, what is it gonna take? There’s another big brand, whole food-based brand, that just launched into you know a massive retailer um across the country, and if they’re advertising it on their social media like crazy. Um, and it’s it’s convenience, Tina. The customers are going to those stores every day. And if they see it there, why do I have to make the extra trip to the independent health food store? Here it is, right here, and it’s half the price. It’s like what do we what do we do?

Tina Maddock: 20:19

Yeah, well, I mean, a couple of things um that I think about that. I don’t think that independents are talking enough about things like that non-GMO organic. Um, and and this is across the board in different products. I mean, essential oils, a number of products you can really highlight that on. And if you think about something like um the electrolyte category, that’s typically for people who are very in tune with I’m I want to put the best in my body because I want high performance, or I’m trying to solve a health issue. So I’m trying to put clean, good products in my body. And again, I’m just saying like highlighting or a simple comparison chart goes a long way having that on your website, having it like hanging on a shelf so that people can take a look. And it doesn’t need to call out a different brand, it can just say other brands, you know, this brand versus other brands.

Brian Hall: 21:25

Leading, yeah, leading brand A, leading brand B. You know, you can draw conclusions.

Tina Maddock: 21:30

You don’t have to point fingers, it can be really easy, but but the people that are buying that specific product, other sports nutrition categories, um, they they care about that being pure organic and that they’re getting in their body because they’re trying to do something for performance or some sort of health issue. So I think you know, just highlighting things like that is a big deal. And exactly. And yeah, and people are constantly also like, what do I put on social media? There you go. Super easy. They’re always like, What’s the content? What do we do? Super easy to highlight brand differences. And I I think it it’s also a differentiator for stores when they start to say, This is why we carry brands, you can start to trust the store more that they’re only gonna bring you what it has some efficacy around it for the health goals that people are trying to solve. I think that’s when you win and pull people into the store, even though they’ve got to buy some other essentials in a depth in another place. Um, but one of the things that we’re talking about right now is highlighting essentials that you do have. I mean, many of the stores carry toilet paper or coffee or something else that people buy every day and they are buying it somewhere. Why not be buying it from you because they’re loyal, you’re local, you’re in their community. This does get back to that. If you’re not in the community, then it’s harder to make that pull in for a system.

Brian Hall: 23:05

100%. 100%.

Tina Maddock: 23:07

But getting in the community, if you’re seen regularly as contributing to that community, man, you’re gonna pull people over for simple things.

Brian Hall: 23:16

Absolutely. And that’s you know, that’s what’s key is uh, you know, and it’s interesting you talk about quality and some of those things in non-GMO. Like that’s what this industry was built out. You know, I was at Infra, the show um, you know, a couple months ago, and you know, they were they brought up those kind of pioneers on stage of the non-GMO movement. And you know, these are the that that was the that’s what the industry was built on, yeah, you know, is these types of pioneers and thought leaders and missionaries and you know making change and standing true to their values when when when they were up against it. And look at what happened 10, 15, 20 years later, Tina. I mean, that’s the root of that’s the root of the industry, and that’s what I want to get back to. Um, and it’s interesting because I went out to, I was uh formulating this electrolyte product, Electramag, and I and I went out to this uh pretty good sized chain in California, um, and their quality standards are like I mean, in the independents have high quality standards. But this one, Tina, I was like, you mean I gotta do what to get a product in here? And you know, I had to send them every bit of certificate of analysis of documentation of not just the final product, Tina, but every ingredient in the product, where it was sourced, what processing aids went into making every single one of those ingredients, because they had a list a mile long of banned substances and again things in their in their store. And I I said, okay. And I took it back and I went to my contract manufacturer. I said, Boom, here, can you do this? Yeah, yeah, we can do this, but it’s gonna, yeah, you’re gonna pay more, it’s gonna cost you. Yeah, your cogs are gonna be a little bit higher, you know. And I’m like, okay. And so we did it, we we delivered, and it’s now the number one selling electrolyte in that chain. And you know, you look at that and you you we have to know and ask the questions. There’s a couple, you know, new brands that just launched, Tina, right? You know, in the in the space and the whole food realm and stuff like that. And we don’t even know who the owner is. Like who’s behind the company? Ask those questions. Who’s the owner? You know, when somebody comes in and I talk to independent retailers all the time, you know, um, and it’s like, you know, Bruce and you know, um, Ryan and Brian and all these, you know, the retailers in Florida, and you know, Joe Nolan and Good Harvest and Jimbo and you know, um, all these stores across the country. I have their cell phones and the personal relationships. It’s like, who owns True Grace? Christy Hall. Oh, I know her husband, Brian. I got a cell right here. You got a question? You don’t get that with anyone else.

Speaker 2: 26:02

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 26:03

Um, and and that’s one of the key things. And a funny story with these contract manufacturers, with knowing that and asking those questions, because a lot of these companies use contract manufacturers for their product, right? Ask who they are, you know, and in true transparency. And I was I was uh actually have never been fired in my career, Tina. I’ve never had the feeling of being fired, uh you know, thank goodness. But I was fired nine months ago.

Speaker 2: 26:31

Uh-oh.

Brian Hall: 26:32

Yeah, I was fired. So we had this contract manufacturer that we were doing some work with, and we were always having problems. Always having problems with them. And I got the phone call one day. And you know what they said, Tina? They said, you know what? True gray standards, your quality standards are just too high for us to meet. So we can’t do business with you anymore. And I was like, excuse me?

Speaker 2: 27:05

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 27:06

Our quality standards are too high that you’re firing us? I got fired nine months ago. Um and we since moved on and and partnered with some um bigger and uh you know stronger and button-up supply chain and contract manufacturers in some areas where uh I I I apply. I had the FDA come in here, Tina, like a year ago. I gotta tell you that story. Yeah, it was hilarious. Okay, so um I had the FDA come in. I’m I’m sitting at this desk, Tina. Okay, it’s my beautiful office here in Pewkey. I don’t know if people, if this is video, people can see it or if it’s just audio, but you know, I’m out in Lake Country in Wisconsin, beautiful area, and three black SUVs pull up, Tina. Right by my window here.

Tina Maddock: 27:55

And I’m like from a movie that doesn’t like the real FDA would come looking back.

Brian Hall: 28:02

I know. I’m like, what the heck? And I I’m like, that’s weird. Three black SUVs, and they pull in the parking lot, and then I’m sitting here and my my door is right there. Honest to God, Tina. They walk in, they don’t knock. They walk in, hold up, they we’re here for a surprise, uh surprise audit. And I was like, awesome. I did. I said, this is my I wasn’t nervous. I said, this is my time to shine. I’ve been waiting for this moment for three years, Tina. And they came in and they sat, came in into my office here. I got our uh COO and our director of RD and Education Regulatory all on the Zoom right away. I knew exactly what to do. Opened up the filing cabinets, you know, have at it. And they sat here, Tina, from eight o’clock in the morning on a Tuesday till five o’clock Tuesday night. We’re back on Wednesday at eight o’clock in the morning till five o’clock Tuesday night, and then Thursday they were back at eight in the morning until one thirty. Eight hours. I had to order lunch in, I had to sit in a chair. They went through everything. You know, oh you’re saying third-party tested purity IQ. How did you can you verify each lot and batch and pull up this? They went through everything. And at the end, you know, I’m sat there and they close the books and the blah blah blah. And um I said, so what’s the what’s the thing here? And they’re like, Well, you’ve got a letter in the mail. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, because they see if you have citations or any of that. Tina, she says to me, she says, I just want to w let you know. I’ve been doing this for three years. I’ve been with the FDA for X amount of years, I’ve been doing this for, you know, three years in this space. I wish every company was as buttoned up as True Brace.

Tina Maddock: 30:00

Oh nice, yeah.

Brian Hall: 30:01

She she closed her book. She left. Zero citations, Tina. That’s what you want as an independent retailer. Right? And that’s the that but that takes that takes money. And that takes a lot of expenses with the testing and the quality and the regulatory. And you know, you can’t trust any of these contract manufacturers. You can’t trust them. You got to verify, trust but verify. And that’s what we do because I want the independent retailer, if you’re listening, when you put a bottle of true grace in someone’s hand, that’s your reputation.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Mm-hmm.

Brian Hall: 30:36

At the core of it. Right?

Speaker 2: 30:39

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 30:40

And I I’ve been in this industry for 36 years. I love this industry. I love the independent retailers. I’ll do ever anything I can to support them at True Grace and to be that brand that they can trust.

Tina Maddock: 30:54

Yeah. So here’s uh something I think could be useful for the listeners. If they’re an independent retailer, before they bring a brand in their store or talk to the ones they already have, what are five or ten things they should be asking every manufacturer?

Brian Hall: 31:12

I think number one is, you know, like uh who’s who’s behind the brand? You know, who’s the owner? That’s one of the biggest things. What are the values? What are the mission? What’s the values in the mission and the guiding principles and the formulation? That’s probably the first thing I would ask is who’s behind it? And what are their formulations, philosophies? What is their mission? What is their guiding principle? Because the first thing I would do as a business owner if I owned an independent health food store is I would want to align with partners that share my values and mission.

Speaker 2: 31:45

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 31:45

Right? And we forget to do that. You know, if I had somebody come and say, Tell me, Jim, how does your brand align with my mission and values? Okay, good. Boom. It checks that box. Great. Uh, you know, and then the next thing is the formulation philosophy, like I talk about. You know, and then diving into you know what is your omnichannel strategy, is a big one, right? Um, and you know, because a lot of brands, you know, are focused solely on this is what happens. I know this all too well. Okay, you have to be careful as an independent retailer because a lot of these brands have been D2C, direct-to-consumer. They put a ton of money into the TikTok and into the Instagram, and you know, time and time again, they spend, I was talking to somebody yesterday with this one brand where they were spending a million dollars a month on meta advertising.

Speaker 2: 32:42

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 32:43

A million a month. And they you know, they had a three ROS, four ROS. I mean, they were pretty it was a printing press of money, right? Um, but you know what the value of the company was? Nothing.

unknown: 32:57

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 32:57

Because they didn’t have a retail presence. And these companies that want to come in and buy companies and you know, look at all these different things or invest in companies, they want a brand that has a, you know, that that’s well balanced and has a you know fair pricing strategy and all of those things across the board. Um, and so I would ask that question, you know, what is your omni straddle chat strategy? Are you trying to because then a lot of these brands now they go into the retailers and say, oh, we need to get into the retailers. We need, you know, because this is you know, to do this, we need to do that, you know, kind of thing. We didn’t do that at True Grace. You know, like our omnichannel, our our foundation is brick and mortar, is health food stores, because we’re on a mission to support, we’re proud supporters of regenerative agriculture, you know, and there’s a lot of things that we do to support regenerative agriculture outside of True Grace that your listeners could take a deep dive on and take a look at. You know, my wife’s uh family foundation sponsored the white paper at Rodale Institute to create the standard for regenerative agriculture. You know, there’s a lot of things that we’ve done there behind the scenes to do that. But the regenerative agriculture movement and a lot of the non-GMO movement, a lot of these movements, those were changed by pioneers in the industry that were feet on the health food store, independent health food store floor. And that’s what we want to support at True Grace. And that’s why we have, you know, we offer the same pricing strategy across all. And I was talking to a retailer yesterday in Ohio, and she said, Oh, I’m priced at this. And I’m like, that’s great. You’re priced below our Amazon price. That’s what I want. You know, I want somebody to come in and say, Oh, you know, Tina, this is more expensive on Amazon. Can I please buy it at your store, Tina?

Tina Maddock: 34:44

Yeah. And people are looking up. So I, you know, I used to hear this from retailers um that people would come in and they would Amazon shop while they’re in the store to see if that same brand is on there in the pricing. And I was like, I don’t know. I I don’t know, but I saw it in a store the other day, electrolytes specifically. They were going online to look and they were like, uh, it’s it’s cheaper here. Let’s just get this. And I was like, good job.

Brian Hall: 35:17

That’s true, Grace. I priced or you know, I priced it on Amazon at MSRP.

Speaker 2: 35:22

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 35:22

You know, and and that’s what I’m trying to tell you know the retailers. And I give I give retailers a lot of discounts and promotions and different things like that. Um, and um, you know, they pass it on, which is great. I love that they do that. Um, but you also you know that that promote us more because that’s it’s in your store, it’s less expensive, it’s not in the Targets, it’s not in the you know, the Walgreens, it’s not we’re we’re trying to support this industry.

Speaker 2: 35:52

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 35:52

Um, you know, and so get behind that. Uh, you know, so those that’s another key thing. And then, you know, coming back to the third-party testing, Tina, and a lot of a lot of companies won’t answer it, but you know, like who’s your you know, who’s your contract manufacturer? Where are you making this? You know, I had uh, you know, uh somebody the other day, it was funny as a probiotic company, and and oh yeah, they’re making it right there at their office, and blah blah blah. I’m like, are you sure about that? And oh yeah, they’re making it right there, and the buttons and I’m like, you sure? Oh yeah, and I’m like have you been? Yeah, have you seen it with your own eyes? And then she’s like, No. And I’m like, you might want to fact check that. Okay. Um, and then when somebody comes to me and they say, Brian, who’s your contract manufacturer for your probiotics? I say Lalamont in Montreal, the second largest probiotic manufacturer in the entire world, who has an actual dedicated institute, Roselle Institute, that does studies on their actual specific strains that they’ve developed over the course of a hundred years that are have over 400 studies on them. Do you want to go with me? I’m going in August. You want to come? Tina, you want to come to Montreal and see Lalaman?

Tina Maddock: 37:27

I would love to.

Brian Hall: 37:27

Let’s go. Let’s go.

Tina Maddock: 37:29

Let’s do it.

Brian Hall: 37:30

Yeah. And then, you know, if somebody says it, so that’s transparency, Tina.

Tina Maddock: 37:37

Yeah, and I I don’t understand, like, if it if someone’s not willing to answer that, like where, who, and how. I I don’t know how you can trust, right? Like without without someone answering those questions and being transparent about those things. I don’t know how you then trust that they’re doing what they’re saying they’re doing.

Brian Hall: 37:59

Exactly. And that, you know, and that’s the thing. And it happens all the time where um, you know, uh you just you trust you can’t trust the content, you can’t trust them because you gotta verify. Yeah, and that’s the third, that’s where the third party testing comes in, that’s where the proper regulatory testing comes in, that’s where, you know, that’s why we’re so buttoned up at True Grace. Um, and I I put that into the DNA of our company. We invested heavily there up front. Um, and then you know, another so that’s one thing. And then another big thing that uh a lot of stores, retailers, I think miss the kind of the mark on or the boat on, too, is like, oh, well, so and so brand Tina gives me 40 off every day.

Tina Maddock: 38:42

Oh, right, yeah.

Brian Hall: 38:44

And I’m sitting there and like, and I’m very respectful, but uh, you know, I’ve been doing this for 36 years. I was on the I was I led a big company. I don’t know if you know, I led this uh company called New Chapter with a fantastic team of people. Um, not just me. I’ve taken you know hardly any credit for it, but we had a great team, and that company went, you know, and skyrocketed and then sold to Procter and Gamble. And you know, I worked there for four years and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So but which we have to be careful of, Tina, is that when somebody’s coming in and they’re offering you 40% off every day, they know they have to do that, so they build it into their pricing model. Does that make sense?

Tina Maddock: 39:28

Yeah, totally. Um that a lot, like having having a running thing like that, then the price is not right.

Brian Hall: 39:38

Right. And that’s that’s where I’m struggling a lot. And I need your help, Tina. Maybe you can help me with this and guide me in the right direction. Um, you know, so if if we do the math, okay, um, Tina, let’s do the math real quick. I have a product at True Grace, and it’s six dollars. Okay, that’s my MSRP. Okay, now if we take ten percent off of six dollars, Tina, that’s sixty cents, right? So six dollars minus sixty cents is five dollars and forty cents. Okay, for for widget A.

Speaker 2: 40:19

Okay.

Brian Hall: 40:20

Now, widget B, Tina, is ten dollars MSRP. But it’s forty percent off.

Speaker 2: 40:30

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 40:32

So now forty percent off of ten dollars is six dollars.

Speaker 2: 40:37

Right.

Brian Hall: 40:38

Which one do you want to buy, Tina? The one that’s forty percent off at six dollars or the one that’s ten percent off at five forty?

Tina Maddock: 40:45

Right, exactly.

Brian Hall: 40:47

Which one?

Tina Maddock: 40:48

The five forty. Um the five.

Brian Hall: 40:50

You you you would think, yeah. You would think so. But but people don’t. People don’t. They’re like, oh my god, this is such an amazing deal. It’s 40% off at $6.

Tina Maddock: 41:02

Yeah. Do you think there’s a little bit of um of that law of price um setting where it’s where it’s like if you level someone thinking that the value’s here, and when you’re like, but I’ll give it to you for this. And then people think they’re getting that much value when really the thing just costs that much, right?

Brian Hall: 41:25

It’s unbelievable. And I know what this stuff costs, and you know, I’m and I’m um, you know, kind of you know, speaking out in this industry, and probably, you know, not the most well-like guy in the industry, but you know, people Tina, if somebody comes if if somebody comes to you and says, Hey Tina, I’m gonna give this product to you for free.

Tina Maddock: 41:46

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 41:48

And I’m gonna give it to you for 90 days, and I’m gonna guarantee it. And if it doesn’t move, I’m gonna take it back and I’m gonna ship it back to my warehouse. Do you ever think like, wow, what value does that product have if I have to give if if I can give it away for free? Right? Like if some my probiotic, I know what my probiotic costs, Tina, a bottle, and what that purity IQ testing per bottle is, and you know, the fact that I’m using a patented CSP bottle that protects it from moisture lightened oxygen, and that I’m using patented digestive-resistant capsules and I’m using clinically studied strains. If somebody comes and asks me for my probiotic for free, I you know what I say, Tina? I say, you know what? I say, you know what, Tina, with all due respect, it doesn’t seem like our relation or or or you know, we’re aligned.

Speaker 2: 42:55

Right.

Brian Hall: 42:56

You know, I can’t give free product, I’m sorry, I have to walk away.

Speaker 2: 43:00

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 43:01

Right? Because we’re we’re conditioned as humans now at the retailers, that it has to be free filled, that it has to be, you know, these massive deals. Um, and you know, I hear it all the time. There’s another big brand out there that, and the retailers hate it, I know you do. They come in and they say, okay, well, we’re launching 18 new products. We’re gonna give you 40% off, and then if you don’t take these 18 products at this discount, you’re gonna lose your discount on these other 22 products. And then I’ve gone into retailers and I’ve said, Hey, you brought in all that product, it just launched last month, and she Tina, she had it on a clearance rack for 70% off. Yeah, the whole stack. And I said to the lady, I said, I said, with all due respect, I was like, this just launched, you just brought it in. It just launched a month ago. She’s like, they forced me to take it.

Speaker 2: 43:55

Oh, yeah.

Brian Hall: 43:55

Otherwise, I wouldn’t get my discount on anything else. I didn’t want it. So as soon as it came in, I immediately put it on a clearance rack.

Speaker 2: 44:03

Oh wow.

Brian Hall: 44:03

I’m like, I said, what? That’s what we’re at right now. And here I come hat in hand. Here I come hat in hand and being like, you know, hey, we’ll buy one, buy two, buy three, buy 144, Tina. I don’t care. I’ll give you the same discount. What am I doing wrong, Tina? Tell me.

Tina Maddock: 44:27

No, I mean, look, there are strategies that you can use for short periods of time to do things that I think, you know, we’re all we all do tests to see like what works and what doesn’t. But if it’s consistent across the board, then I do think there’s a pricing issue. And things that we’ve found before are when you just lower the price and like this is the price, um, you get higher volume and higher than you would have gotten doing that old discount strategy at higher margins because you’re not like pulling discounts here to push discounts there. So you end up with a lot more money in the end when the consum because the consumer is savvy around pricing. And so when you inflate it to pull it down, then they’re just gonna wait until you pull it down or expect that you’re always gonna offer 30%, 40%, whatever it is.

Brian Hall: 45:30

Which they are, which they are now, and that’s the new floor, you know, and and that’s where you know. Um, I remember back in the day, you know, as a as a 16-year-old kid working in a health food store in Cleveland and Ohio. I forget what the product is it was like, remember when shark cartilage?

Tina Maddock: 45:45

I don’t know if you oh my gosh, yes.

Brian Hall: 45:48

You remember?

unknown: 45:49

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 45:50

Shark cartilage, right? You know, I won’t go into all the specifics on what they said it did, but you know, there was books out there, and and and Tina, we I I was a 16-year-old kid. I had working in the health food store at the register on a Saturday, and the guy had it stacked behind the register because it was selling for a hundred bucks a bottle. And this was 36 years ago.

Speaker 2: 46:11

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 46:12

Remember? Nobody batted an eye. I was selling, you know, 24 a day.

Tina Maddock: 46:18

Yeah, I’m yes. And I I I’ve seen other products come through like that. Um so it’s very interesting that you’ve been in the industry for so long that you’ve seen like trends come through.

Brian Hall: 46:35

You’ve seen them all.

Tina Maddock: 46:36

Yeah.

unknown: 46:37

Yeah.

Tina Maddock: 46:37

Not all.

Brian Hall: 46:38

I mean 36 years of trends.

Tina Maddock: 46:40

You’ve seen a while, right? Um, of trends that are coming through. So I speak to that a little bit, the trends versus like what actually is effective for the consumer. What are you seeing right now?

Brian Hall: 46:58

Oh, goodness gracious. Um uh, yeah, I think trends, you know, you know, I spent a lot of time in uh after I left New Chapter, I went to a practitioner brand. Um and I I went to a pretty big one. It was one of the top three practitioner brands and had a great time there, and it was amazing. And it was it was really interesting, Tina, because I had spent so much time on retail, and I knew I knew quite a bit. You know, I was trained by some pretty powerful individuals in formulation and herbalism and you know stuff like that. But I’ll tell you what, Tina, when I went to this company, it was like I was in kindergarten. I was like, oh my goodness. Like, and I’ve now these are functional medicine doctors and chiropractors and you know, um, naturopathic doctors, and you know, I like holy cow, I really gotta up my game on the education side of things, right? Um, and you know, that’s where I learned that you know, um there’s there’s trends, there’s fads, but you know, always diving back into the clinical research. Right? You know, for for example, Tina, okay, so like vitamin K2. I said this in my talk. I think myself that vitamin K2 is the most important nutrient. And I may get this wrong. People please don’t take my word for it here, fact-check it. But I think they the stat is like 80 or 85% of people in the America are deficient in K2. I think. So fact-check me, people. Go online and take a look. But think about that, Tina. 85% of people are deficient in K2. K2 is essential for bone remodeling and shuttling calcium from the arteries into the bone. You know, it need K2 and D3 for the immune system, K2 and D3 for osteoblasts. You know, osteoblasts build bone and they’re K, you know, K2 dependent and D3 dependent and need K2 to activate it, you know, that whole thing. Very important nutrient. Okay, so retailer, do the math. Okay, I’m gonna give you a second, Mr. and Mrs. Retailer, to pull out your pad and paper. Okay. Want you to write down right now how many customers a day come through your health food store.

Speaker 2: 49:10

Mm-hmm.

Brian Hall: 49:12

Okay. Now, what I want you to do is write down how many bottles a day of Menicue 7K2 you sell.

Tina Maddock: 49:19

Right.

Brian Hall: 49:20

Okay, so if you have a hundred people coming in a day and you’re not selling 85 bottles a day, we’re missing the mark. Does that make sense, Tina?

Tina Maddock: 49:31

Totally. And we talk about things like this all the time. Like if you are educated, you know that there are products that every single person would find useful and should be taking. And so that is easy to have a conversation with people if you’re willing to openly have a conversation about health goals and they’re gonna talk to you about something, and you’re gonna say, okay, great. And did you know also that you should be using this product? Here’s where you can find it. Um, and having that one conversation, if you’re helping them solve a health goal, what we’ve seen is 80% of people will buy the product that you’re recommending as a partner to whatever else they’re they’re buying. Um if they don’t have a health goal or a problem that they’re talking to you about and you’re not talking to them about the product solving, still 20% of people will buy it if you just talk about it. So that’s always a way to help the consumer. And and we talk about that too because a lot of people are like, upsell. I don’t I can’t upsell. That seems fishy, you know, snake oil salesman kind of thing. And I’m like, you’re not offering them something that they shouldn’t be using, you’re actually offering them something that every person needs. It’s really easy.

Brian Hall: 50:57

And you know, you know, the other thing I you know talk to retailers too, it’s like you don’t have to sell them to educate them.

Tina Maddock: 51:02

Right?

Brian Hall: 51:03

You have you know, think about it it really as planting a seed. Okay. So, you know, and I tell this all the time when somebody comes in and says, Oh, I’m looking for XYZ for I’m looking for calcium for this, or you know, whatever for my bone health or cardiovasculars, uh, runs in my family. I’m looking for, you know, I’m looking for cayenne for my heart or niacin, you know, for my uh, you know, to look at my blood lipids and stuff like that. That’s great. Doctor told you to come in and take niacin. Boom, here you go. Niacin helps with blood lipids and lipoprotein A and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Have you heard of K2? Right. No, my doctor didn’t mention K2. Go home and do some research on Menic7K2 and the importance of that for your heart and for your bones. Okay, here’s your niacin. Okay, go see ya, love you, bye. See you next week. You know what’s gonna happen, Tina? They’re gonna come in next week, and they’re gonna be like, hey, Tina, you told me about that thing. It’s I don’t know, it had a M and a K in it. Oh, Menic 7K2? Yeah. I went home and I did the research and I saw on the website that it can really help with you know getting the camp, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m probably deficient in it. Yeah, come over here. I got it right over here.

Speaker 2: 52:15

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 52:15

Now you’re an expert. That’s the difference. Um, and what’s great is you know, the biggest challenge right now with consumers, Tina, is that they’re they’re face this is a big problem for retailers. So listen up is pill fatigue.

Tina Maddock: 52:31

Yeah.

Brian Hall: 52:32

There’s the consumers, I’ve we’ve done analysis on it. It’s one of the top six complaints, not complaints, but just concerns in regards to taking dietary supplements, is the fear of taking too many pills. Um, and that’s why to your point, Tina, true grace, our multi, our whole tagline and formulation philosophy, getting back to point two of what retailers should ask brands, what is your formulation philosophy? Ours is meaningful ingredients at effective doses. So your consumer doesn’t have to worry about taking too many pills. We’re the only whole food-based multi using Menicue 7K2 at 60 micrograms. So now there’s more value there, and they don’t have to take as many pills.

Tina Maddock: 53:12

Right.

Brian Hall: 53:13

But you need education to get that across, right? So yeah.

Tina Maddock: 53:21

So many good things. We could talk for a very long time, I think.

Brian Hall: 53:25

We could. We should do another one.

Tina Maddock: 53:27

Happy to do it. We’ll definitely have you on again. This has been great. Um, anything that you would love to leave the listeners with, and of course, I want you to talk about how to get in touch with you and your team for bringing you in or talking to you about products that maybe they don’t have yet. But anything else you want to leave the independent retailers with last thoughts about?

Brian Hall: 53:50

Um Yeah, no, I mean, I think I love you guys. I mean, I sincerely do. True grace, my wife, Christy. Uh, we love you guys. We love your mission. Um, you’re our friends, you’re our family. We share pictures, you know, a lot of the retailers, you know, that I go across. It’s it’s just it’s so much joy, you know. Um, Tina, it’s like we go to the retailers and Christy and I, and it’s it’s like, you know, we’re we’re sitting at dinner tables and you know, we’re out at their farm. And I mean, that’s that’s what we enjoy, that’s what we love. That’s what that’s why we started this company. We didn’t start this company because of money, or we, you know, it was it was a different mission. Um, and we’re here for you. And you know, and one thing I would ask maybe Tina is that just share the message, you know, if you’re if you’re if you have true grace, you know, because we’re only in 25, 30 percent of stores. That’s it. You know, um, share share the message with a friend and say, hey, you know, we got this true grace and they’re really, you know, doing this for us and that for us, and give us a plug. That’s that’s what we need, you know, to keep the mission moving.

Tina Maddock: 54:55

Yeah, that’s great. And um just while you were talking about their friends and everything, uh just being at Soho myself, I can’t tell you how many retailers came up to hug my neck. That’s how much of a family it feels like. So and if you haven’t been to Soho to experience that, definitely go because it does feel it’s such a small, connected network that everyone is so friendly and welcoming and excited to see each other. And I think, oh man, learning from other retailers is um one of the best things that a retailer can do because they’ve they’ve been through the same experiences that you’ve been through, and having them have conversation with you and be like, oh, well, when I saw that, I did this, or these are the people I use for this perfect place to get to the right manufacturers, to the right um even employees. They they can help you with just about any problem.

Brian Hall: 56:00

Yeah, and it’s it’s it’s your industry, guys. Yeah, you know, I mean this is it’s your you dictate where this industry grows, you know, goes. You dictate what brands do. You dictate, you know, you have the power, you know. True Grace, we don’t have it. We have none. You guys have it all. We rely on you. Um that’s what that’s the friends and the family, and that’s the support, and that’s that network, you know. Um, and and ask these questions, dive deep, you know, understand who these brands are, and let’s get back to the roots of our industry, which was uh education, which is soul, which is purpose, which is passion, which is integrity, which is you know, all of those things that this industry was built on.

Tina Maddock: 56:43

That’s awesome. Thank you so much for being part of the podcast. And for everyone else that’s listening today, thank you for spending your time with us. And we will see you on the next episode.

Brian Hall: 56:54

Awesome. Thanks, Tina. Take care, everyone.

Tina Maddock: 56:56

Thank you so much for joining us for the latest episode of the Natural Products Marketer Podcast, where we’re here to help you grow your business so you can serve more people and change more lives. If you have any questions that have come up during this episode or others, or there’s just a retail challenge that you’re facing today, I would love for you to reach out to us at info at naturalproductsmarketer.com. We’re here to answer questions. But most of all, if you have a question, then another retailer probably also has that question. So we can bring experts onto the podcast to give you the information that you really need. And if you liked what you heard, give us a thumbs up or give us a review on uh YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening today. All right, it was great to see you.